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The City of Edmonds Economic Development Commission at its Thursday, Nov. 13 special meeting will continue its discussion of two new revenue ideas being considered by the Edmonds City Council: a local business and occupation tax and paid parking. Reports will be made from the respective committees studying each topic.
The meeting will run from 6-8 p.m. in the third-floor Brackett Room of Edmonds City Hall, 121 5th Ave. N., Edmonds. You can also access the meeting remotely via Zoom.
You can see the complete agenda here.
How much blood can the government get out of the turnip? They sure are squeezing hard, I guess the city needs to decide if they want boarded up shops and less foot traffic or a vibrant business environment. The cost to go to a restaurant is already nearly the highest in the country. The lines at the foodbank continue to grow the economy is slowing down and the government says we need more than double the money we tax today. I guess if the goal is to tax the rich business taxes are probably a better way than property taxes I just don’t think either are going to be good at this time.
Jim, what alternate ideas do you propose?
Ideas for generating revenue would be none I think we are over taxed and over regulated I think the city needs to get back to the bare bones basics.
What do you classify as bare bones that we should get back to? Iron or Bronze Age life experiences? The Quakers in Pennsylvania have a quaint life style. Or shall we follow our tariff-loving President Trump back to the Guilded Age? There’s plenty of coal coming through town on trains. We can start burning that again. It’s about time, Jim, that you realize bare bones means different things to different people. We know you don’t want to be taxed for anything. What do you want the city to look like? Then let’s see how that fits with what everyone else regards as bare bones.
Jim, every once in awhile you stumble onto a real fact. I just saw a report that the Seattle area has the highest chain restaurant prices in the entire nation. Edmonds may just have the most valuable and costly Big Mac Burger in America.
I know amazing, I probably read the same article. How are things going on the other side of the big puddle.
Jim, it’s great over here so far. Over all, the cost of housing has turned out to be about one half what it was in Edmonds even before the levy failure. Lots of civic spirit and community events even though it isn’t officially a town. We attended the Greater Hansville Holiday gift fair today with local artists and crafts sellers presenting their wares. If we want to see our little harbor and fishing boats we just look out the window. Once in awhile a submarine goes by. To see the big ships we have to drive two miles to Point no Point. Waiting for the ferry is often a hassle but riding it is a pure joy for an old Salish Sea lover. It’s a lot like Edmonds 50 years ago, only better in many respects.
I love our downtown and value the local merchants. I patronize them when I want a gift, a card, a kitchen gadget. I will pay a bit more to keep them rather than utilize mail order. Paying for parking would be a hassle that would likely deter me for those quick stops.
The problem is that a B & O tax directly impacts the business owner, not the customer. It is not like sales tax that is collected and paid by business but a tax paid on the businesses gross receipts. Yes, they could raise prices, but all that really does is increase their B & O liability. So a B & O tax doesn’t really affect customers. I won’t raise my prices when this goes through. Sadly, in attending one of the workshops there was no discussion about should they or shouldn’t they but rather best ways to implement – so it really felt like a done deal.
Well the mayor and council still haven’t read the memo from the election that residents in this community are not going to put up with what they are doing and not letting us know up front what’s going on. We cannot stand by and let them pull the wool over our eyes again. We have to watch carefully.
Hi Sherry – The EDC is an advisory group that has been meeting on this topic and others the last few months and it has been a visible process with notices about meetings as well as agendas made available to the public ahead of time, meetings with business owners, and commission meetings held on Zoom. Members of the public can make public comment at the beginning of each meeting. The EDC is tasked with presenting recommendations to Council to consider. Nothing has been decided and all of this has been out in the open. I encourage you to consider attending a meeting if you can.
Chris,
I agree attending meetings inperson or on zoom is the best way to be knowledgeable and understand the process the city goes through. Every meeting I learn something valuable and find total transparency in the process.
Thank you for being a responsible and ethical councilwoman.
Chris, this was my first time zooming the EDC meeting. It was very informative and very friendly and full of good ideas and nice people. I will be watching these whenever I can and next time be prepared for my 3 minutes ha. I agree about what you said about 99 area too.
Sherry, part of the messaging from citizens voting NO on the levy was~ look to alternate sources for needed new revenue, don’t be putting all the burden on property taxpayers. I believe that the Economic Development Commission has been pursuing that interest in a reasonable way. A few smaller taxes can be preferable to and less painful than one larger one.
Keep Edmonds Vibrant folks in the only public extended presentation to council presented the idea of new revenues other than property taxes. I recall their proposal was for $12m, and B&O taxes and Paid Parking were among the suggestions.
Paid parking is a non-starter. As is B&O, in its current form. Let’s get a bit more innovative here…
We need more than two ideas.
In partnership with Visit Bellevue, Bellhop, and The Waterfront Center, I’ll be hosting Exploring Bellhop for Edmonds — An Alternative to Paid Parking on Tuesday, November 18th from 4:30–6:00 p.m, in Community Room A.
This session will look at how other cities are addressing parking and mobility challenges without adding new taxes or fees on residents and businesses. Bellhop operates as a free, electric neighborhood shuttle that supports downtown access and local commerce — exactly the kind of creative, public-private solution Edmonds should be exploring.
Instead of defaulting to paid parking or a B&O tax, it’s time we bring new partners to the table, think bigger, and find ways to strengthen revenue through growth, tourism, and innovation.
I appreciate this volunteer effort. Thanks.
Excellent! Thank you for stepping up.
So Bellevue’s Bellhop is funded by a hotel room tax and maybe some other corporations like Amazon. Edmonds does not have that kind of tax or big corporate players. If it did have a tax like that it should be applied to the city’s financial problems not a free shuttle service. Are downtown Edmonds businesses going to foot the bill themselves? I doubt it. This is the problem with business people wanting city services to promote their own businesses when we are in a financial mess. We have to cut now. We can’t have luxury services like free shuttles. Any money that is raised has to go to fill the hole left by the failure of the levy lift.
Arlene — here we go again. More complaints, zero ideas.
A few facts:
•I personally paid for the Waterfront Center event space. This wasn’t some taxpayer-funded perk — it came out of my pocket.
•Looking at models like Bellhop isn’t “luxury.” It’s called innovation — something Edmonds desperately needs after years of doing nothing but asking residents for more money.
•A shuttle solution would actually help people, especially those who struggle with parking or mobility. It makes it easier and cheaper for folks to get downtown, support local businesses, and enjoy the city without adding a single dollar to what it costs to shop here.
This is a practical, consumer-friendly service — not a handout, not a gimmick, and absolutely not the budget problem you keep trying to pin on business owners.
Some of us are trying to fix things. Others are just yelling “no” at everything.
Get over it, Arlene. Some of us are pushing solutions while you’re stuck in neutral.
When the city doesn’t have money, we can’t pay for it. Plain and simple. We are looking at just struggling to keep what we have now, without the levy, and costs keep rising, so the money can’t come from the city for a new program like this. The voters voted to not spend money. They voted for cuts, not a new program that is not vital. We don’t even have an emergency manager and the city staff is at the bare minimum. How could they do something like this? I would love your idea if we had voted for the levy money. But that is not what the No campaign, which included you, pushed. Get real. We cannot afford a free shuttle. It would have to come from money that is donated, not taxpayer money.
Isn’t the occasional Christmas trolley some sort of free shuttle service? Why not figure out a way to expand on that year around? The city owns Driftwood Playhouse property. Why not knock the building down, expand the parking lot and do a shuttle from there? The plays could move to ACA that the city already subsidizes. Use your past wants to solve some of your current needs. Too many folks in Edmonds will never admit they are wrong about anything. Look at CM’s Nand and Olson statements at last Council meeting after levy failure for the “we just know what’s best for you” mentality personified.
I think there is plenty good bus service that just about nobody uses. Nothing wrong with the trolley but it is more of a want we can’t afford than a need.
Sorry, Clinton… @Arlene..
Arlene — don’t be so narrowly focused. It’s a model, not a carbon copy. Bellevue’s Bellhop works because the concept is adaptable. If we want an alternative to paid parking that doesn’t raise costs on residents or businesses, this is exactly the kind of solution worth exploring.
And yes — who executes the program matters more than anything. That’s the whole point. Private partners, grants, sponsorships, and regional collaborations exist — if someone is willing to pursue them. It’s there for the taking.
No one is suggesting the city pay for it. We all know the city doesn’t have money — that’s why exploring outside-the-city-budget models is so important right now. We can either get creative or just keep repeating “we can’t” while downtown loses accessibility for seniors, visitors, and consumers.
A free shuttle isn’t a “luxury.” It’s a parking solution that increases foot traffic, keeps costs down for customers, and supports local businesses — without hitting taxpayers.
This isn’t about the levy. It’s about whether we can look at solutions that don’t require the city to cut a check.
So yes — let’s get real. There are viable models out there. The question is whether Edmonds leadership is willing to explore them or just dismiss ideas out of hand.
Lee is that option only for DT or does it go to other places in our city? Does it make frequent stops etc I used to go to Portland a lot many years ago and I loved that train type system they had you could hop on and hop off everywhere from the city center to the far away market areas. I know we can’t have that but it was great. I hope your Event is well attended. I agree we need as many ideas as possible. I don’t support B&O) either but I do support paid parking. If the Bellhop gig services all of our city and the merchants would allow people to check their bags until they are finished shopping and we could hop on and hop off to retrieve our goodies I would do that maybe.
Hi Deborah,
Bellevue built Bellhop around their commute patterns.
In Edmonds, we have multiple natural mobility hubs: Highway 99, Perrinville, Westgate, Five Corners, Olympic View, and of course Downtown.
The right model isn’t a “downtown only” circulator — it’s a multi-point loop that connects where our residents actually live, shop, and park.
Think of it like a scaled-down, Edmonds-appropriate version of what you described in Portland:
frequent, predictable hop-on/hop-off service linking neighborhoods to downtown without making people pay more to be here.
And yes — imagine merchants offering bag pickup or hold-behind-counter options so people can keep exploring, grab dinner, stop at more businesses, and come back to their purchases later. That’s how you support local commerce without driving up the cost of access.
This is why the conversation matters now:
We need ideas that support seniors, small businesses, and daily consumers without raising taxes or introducing new fees to visit downtown.
The model is flexible. The question is simply whether Edmonds wants to shape it to fit our community — and whether we bring in the right partners to make it real.
Isn’t the Council voting tonight on increasing our city’s sales tax to the highest in the state at 10.7%? What for? “Cultural access to the arts” which is a want but not a need! And where is the plan that should accompany any tax increase? Did the increased tax for public safety have a plan? I don’t think so. Imposing these taxes without public awareness of a plan is putting the cart before the horse.
Shirley Oczkewicz
Edmonds
Correction above – should read Tuesday, November 18th from 4:30pm-6:00pm at the Edmonds Waterfront Center.
We also corrected the comment to reflect.
You do a great job monitoring this “COMMENT” space. Thanks
I think you are all sort of right. We can’t afford anything right now including what we have in operation. Yeah Jim you are correct the busses are empty. I don’t take busses myself but some seem happy with those. I don’t even know where the bus stops are in the Bowl of Edmonds? Do you know how few and or far apart they are? When I shop I like to buy especially during the holidays. If I have no place like my trunk to put my bags I cannot shop. That is the trouble with busses or trolleys. I want paid parking so we all from all over the city have a chance to park and spend etc.
The buses are run by Community Transit https://www.communitytransit.org/
I use their buses often to get downtown.
In fact they have a shuttle program in Lynnwood and Arlington which is very low cost to ride. They only go within city limits but pick you up from the front door of your home. That would be a better place to try to get a shuttle program for Edmonds… talk to Community Transit, not try to make the City do something they have no money to do.
Did you even read Lee’s reply – he very clearly states: “No one is suggesting the city pay for it. We all know the city doesn’t have money — that’s why exploring outside-the-city-budget models is so important right now. We can either get creative or just keep repeating “we can’t” while downtown loses accessibility for seniors, visitors, and consumers.”
He is absolutely not trying to get the city to do something it doesn’t have the money for.
Interesting though, at least you included another possible avenue to explore re Community transit – maybe focus on these sorts of things as he is.
Ms. Peterson: Then why does Reeves go on about needing Edmonds’ leadership to be willing to explore it, if he isn’t looking for money? He should just go do it, but don’t ask me to pay for it.
Maybe he is asking them to be willing to explore it in order to be supportive of citizens’ efforts? But really you should ask him.
Deborah makes an important point. Before anyone pushes paid parking, the City must show actual data: utilization of every lot, street, and thoroughfare; peak-hour patterns; turnover; and, critically, how many businesses actually support it.
Right now, there’s zero evidence that paid parking solves anything—if anything, it risks deterring customers at the exact moment small businesses are fighting to survive.
If the City can’t produce real data to justify it, then it’s a hard no. That’s not how business makes decisions, especially in this market.
And let’s be clear. The city doesn’t have the data. So this defaults to a revenue-generating exercise.
Arlene, you keep missing (or ignoring) the point.
I’m not asking you – or any taxpayer – to fund a shuttle. Voters just said “no” to more taxes. I respect that, and I’ve said repeatedly that any Edmonds mobility solution has to be built outside the city’s general fund: grants, sponsorships, partnerships with business and nonprofits, etc.
That’s exactly why I’m talking about leadership being willing to explore it.
You can’t build a program that uses non-city money without the city’s cooperation – things like:
•Allowing use of right-of-way and designated stops
•Coordinating with downtown, Highway 99, Perrinville, and our neighborhoods
•Partnering with nonprofits and business districts so seniors, workers, and shoppers can actually use it
I am doing something about it: bringing the Bellhop team here, asking questions, and trying to adapt a proven model so we have an alternative to paid parking that doesn’t raise the cost of coming downtown.
If you don’t want to ride it, that’s fine. But please stop pretending that exploring creative, privately funded solutions is the same as asking you to write another check.
Mr. Reeves: That would be great if you can fund it without city involvement so that the city is not responsible in any way and no new tax is generated by the city to pay for it. Even staff time costs lots of taxpayer dollars especially when they are trimmed to the bone like with the cuts they have already made and will continue to make to get through next year. I still think you should talk to Community Transit instead because they are already set up in Lynnwood with a similar program. At least find out how that is funded and what the details are to see if the two cities could be combined. They charge just regular bus fare for the service I have been told.
The challenge with Community Transit is that it’s not funded or managed by the City, and their routes and schedules are designed around regional commuter traffic — not local business access. They simply can’t provide a short-hop, downtown-to-waterfront service like Bellhop does.
The irony is, if the City refuses to participate even at a partnership level, it also can’t benefit from the economic activity the program could generate — sales tax, tourism, and foot traffic all go elsewhere.
That’s why Edmonds needs to be willing to explore new models that bring value without adding cost.
Agreed Lee I did go to the page to check out that Community Transit…A shuttle service is available and that is not what I am looking for at all. I liked your answer Lee I think that is a great idea and the flexibility and reach to all Centers and Neighborhoods would be great. The fact it is electric is a huge deal too. Community shuttle is not electric. It kind of fits in with the Planning Departments idea of walking spaces for people to meet, talk hang out etc. Bellhop sounds like a win to me an asset for our unique city. No schedules to follow no times dictated. It is great to see our citizens and our business owners looking for solutions. And yes The Levy didn’t pass Arlene. Get over it or the next one won’t pass either. If there is a next one. I really do hate to see our merchants and our very small startups be saddled with that B&O) tax. Many of those will fail. I’m pretty sure that Community Transit is funded with state taxes too. I like some unions, and I like private enterprise too. We should be able to have both some taxes are ok. Everything taxed is not ok. That is how I see it.
There is absolutely no reason under God’s green earth for a rationally run city to furnish a building and parking lot for the use of community theater, especially when there is another perfectly good play staging venue available just blocks away that has also been subsidized with community funding and needs more profit making shows to be self sustaining. I assume someone has to fix the roof, plumbing, electrical appliances, heating etc. in that Driftwood building and it would make a lot more sense to get rid of the building overhead; expand the parking lot and shuttle people downtown and back; up to five corners and back and to Westgate and back. Westgate is a parking nightmare now most days and when they add in all those planned apartments, the business’s there will really be hurting to meet their customers needs for parking. The business’ in those three areas could come together thru the EDC or volunteer group of the willing; purchase a used small school bus and charge a small fee for passengers to pay someone who needs a job to drive it to and from the three areas. The parking is free but the shuttle costs five bucks or whatever it takes to sustain it on a non-profit basis.
Mr Reeves. Go to this page and read about Lynnwood zip shuttle which is a program like what you want to do. It’s on demand. https://www.communitytransit.org/services/zip-shuttle
It is not a regular bus with a route. Read all about it. It is what you are trying to do but it is already in Lynnwood. You should ask community transit for details. Edmonds doesn’t have the personnel to run a program but this is right next door. Maybe they will expand to Edmonds.
Councilmember Susan Paine is Edmonds’ representative on the Community Transit board. I’m sure she can explain how their Zip shuttle program works and the level of cooperation they ask of participating cities.
Sure. I’ll call CM Paine right up..
Roger — If ZIP were a real solution for Edmonds, Susan Paine would’ve delivered it years ago. She’s been on the Community Transit board this whole time — and what exactly has Edmonds gotten out of it? Nothing. No ZIP, no pilot, no improved local mobility.
Why? Because ZIP isn’t funded or controlled by cities. CT decides where it goes, and Edmonds hasn’t been a priority. That’s the reality.
Which is exactly why looking at models like Bellhop matters — programs built outside the bureaucracy, that don’t require new taxes, city staffing, or endless hand-wringing.
If we want mobility solutions that actually help seniors, shoppers, and businesses, we can’t keep relying on the same leadership that’s produced zero results.
The interesting thing is we pay 30 dollars per bus ride as it is, basically this is providing uber service for bus fare, I would say for the price we are paying for transit we ought to have transit providing this personal service to anyone for the cost of bus fare. Me personally we pay way to much for transit. We should demand taxpayer subsidized uber’s for what we are paying.
I positively agree with you Clinton about that Driftwood Players situation. It requires constant up keep and is basically just a storage closet for Edmonds activities with a few plays every year that would probably be even nicer in our other at the spot you mention. I have brought this up to some city staff in the past. I don’t think that type of shuttle would work as people still have to get there to hop on and the hours are probably more limited. All that but it is a great spot that could certainly be utilized for some sort of year round activity center that does make our city some revenue. Serious revenue. Now what would we like in that nice spot that has a parking lot? hum. Maybe a mini mall with stores for needs and wants that aren’t available right downtown. Lets our money here instead of going on line or to Alderwood. Ideas folks? I wonder if Zappos would be interested? Probably not I think they got bought out too. Still thinking. There has to be something. Maybe another hotel a nice one would be good. So many possibilities. We fish, we boat we bike we have no stores that I know of for those items needed for those activities, sports. in a store front you get to see the goods.
I wish you all the luck in your endeavors. However, if you really do want to work to fix Edmonds, when it is in such a financial bind, then you don’t dismiss alternative ideas without looking into it. You don’t blindly follow a man like Mr. Reeves who dismisses every idea but his own. He just rants against the city leaders instead of trying to be more civil. That is not a collaborative effort. He seems very bitter and unrealistic and perhaps he is in a desperate situation with his own business or he has some other reason to be so brash. I think he would do better to change his attitude. But I wish him luck with his shuttle as long as it is truly a privately financed effort. With all the ideas you consider, you have to acknowledge that the City doesn’t have the funds right now, because the Levy failed, so spending must be cut. The money doesn’t fall from the sky.
Arlene — new people stepping into the arena should make incumbents uncomfortable. That’s how change happens. And in Edmonds, 60% of voters said NO — loudly — because they’re tired of the same recycled thinking that got us into this financial mess in the first place.
What’s actually “unrealistic” is dismissing any idea that doesn’t come from the same small group of insiders who’ve run this city into a structural deficit. Looking at alternative models isn’t reckless — it’s responsible. That’s what real problem-solving looks like when the old playbook has failed.
You can attack tone all day, but tone didn’t create the deficit. Leadership did. And pushing for accountability, new ideas, and taxpayer-friendly solutions isn’t bitterness — it’s exactly what the voters demanded with that 60% result.
We’re bringing options to the table. If that makes the status quo uncomfortable, good. That’s how Edmonds moves forward.
I have re-read Lee Reeves postings, including some from a while back. They are clear and well-organized and written, respectful and he is detailed in his responses. I wish we had more such postings, offering clear and useful ideas. That you find his postings so rebarbative may be more in the mind of the reader. Your postings, on the other hand, might often be interpreted as negative and perhaps even over-sensitive. I don’t see Mr Reeves attacking people. Perhaps a mirror would be in order?
Like I said, I wish you all great luck with your endeavor.
That sounds great. A shuttle service going throughout the Bowl, and maybe one which goes up the hill to the shopping area on 100th.
Maybe a funicular going up to 5 corners? (Partly joking)
Exactly, Dana — that’s what’s interesting about the Bellhop model.
It’s not just about mobility — it’s designed to serve a Business Improvement District (BID) by connecting key commercial and residential zones. Edmonds has different congestion points, but the model adapts well — linking downtown, the waterfront, and even up the hill to other shopping areas.
The best part is that it supports multiple stakeholders at once — residents, visitors, and small businesses — while improving access without adding new taxes or fees.
Before people go down the Driftwood Annex path too far, I would remind everyone that this corner is next to a senior living home, an office building and multiple condos. A parking garage next to a mostly residential area-a monstrosity. Generating noise, costing money to build, is not a feature that a walkable city with multimodal transit already built needs. the ED surface lots work very well and are currently free of charge. Usually next to a business, not multi unit living.
Dana,
Clinton was talking about the Driftwood Theater parking lot, not the Driftwood Annex which, as you said, would not be a good location to stage a shuttle service.
What Edmonds has gotten from Community Transit so far is a network of bike lanes and “sharrows” markings on it’s roads courtesy of a large grant that was facilitated by the block of four Democratic Party and Nelson loyalists (Susan Paine being one of them) that were present on the Edmonds City Council at the time of approval and implementation of this work that essentially did away with lots of parking in favor of the local bicycle and climate control special interest groups. Much of this grant funded work had to be re-done on 9th. Ave./100th. after Rosen took command of the city and as far as I know it has never been explained who paid for the re do and how much that cost. As Arlene says ,”the money doesn’t fall from the sky,” but it sure seems to fall from the taxpayers pockets frequently in Edmonds; without much accountability for where it went.
There are some who take the position that whatever we do now to stop the warming of the planet could be undone by a series of volcanic eruptions or a collision with an object in space. These things have happened in the past. I am of the opinion that we have a certainty that human activities are adversely altering our climate. Erupting volcanoes and colliding comets are rare and uncertain. So let’s try to mitigate climate change as best we can.
Yes, Democrats favor efforts to improve our infrastructure while also promoting modes of transportation that reduce the use of fossil fuels. If one wishes to phrase this in a way to imply some sort of nefarious collusion, it still remains that bicycle lanes, light rail and buses are a more efficient and environmentally sustainable way to move people than building and maintaining more roads. As with all road markings, the lines for bike lanes will have to be repaired. If public transportation use increases, the use of cars on roads may decline, which may save money on road maintenance. I know: lots of speculation here.
I would be curious to know how many parking spaces in Edmonds were lost due to bike lanes, if any. Certainly none along Main or 5th, nor 9th that I noticed.
Michael, I’ll give you that I’m not spot on about how much parking was actually lost. I know some of the parking on 9th./100th. is now inside of a rather narrow bike lane that got redrawn on the do over of the project. My question is about the wisdom of spending this money on the grant in the first place (the grant money wasn’t free as your transit area tax should prove to you) to solve just what problem presumably existed to necessitate the installation of lanes and “sharrows?” Were hoards of bicyclists being mowed down for the lack of these additions to the roads? I haven’t noticed hoards of bicyclists using these special trails to facilitate getting them down to the busses and the ferry which was the suggested purpose for them in the first place. My other question is who paid for the do over and what did it cost? I have nothing against bicycles or bicyclists. I do object to them being portrayed as special people who deserve special treatment and special concern from motorists who also use the roads. As a kid I rode my bike all over Lincoln Neb. including a paper route with no special lanes provided and no “vibe” that I was somehow saving the climate or the planet.
Clint, you contribute thoughtful comments to MENS. Too often we hide behind the “good ole days” position when those days are better left behind. Mothers Against Drunk Drivers (MADD) is a case in point. Through harsher penalties, better enforcement and clearer road signage, that organization has lowered the number of fatalities of bicyclists. Bike lanes will not eliminate injury and death, even for drivers who may suffer due to poor behavior by a cyclist. It is proven that bike lanes help keep bicyclists and drivers apart. All I know is that the federal government awarded Edmonds a 1.5 million dollar grant for bike lanes. Public transportation (once heavily used) and bicycling will take time to catch on. The pandemic hurt ridership due to recommendations to avoid public spaces and with more people working from home. The numbers are rebounding due to better dependability and connectivity among services. We do not see many bicyclists or bus riders, but we see some. For the sake of the planet, let’s hope the numbers increase. When you and I delivered newspapers by bike, we were no thinking about a warmer planet. I do notice people now delivering newspapers from their fossil fuel burning cars.
I think the grant could be used for a few things and Edmonds chose the bike lanes and put it along 9th and up past Yost largely unused maybe the money might have had a greater impact if one of the other options was chosen guess we will never know just about nobody takes the paper anymore so that delivery model doesn’t work plus times must be better because kids don’t seem to have the motivation for a few dollars like they used to.
I’ve enjoyed every decade (7) of my life in one way or another. I learned from my grandmother who was a young woman in the 1920s about so many useful things I still do today. History is important so we don’t repeat mistakes and so we can also use this sage wisdom. Looking at it as better left behind is just ignorant. For instance, I asked my Grandma when I was 18 what she thought about women’s liberation she looked at me and said Debbie I was born liberated. So I was. She was a flapper. Cocoa butter was used for birth control back then. Grandpa made beer in the woods at that age, and he compared prohibition to Marijuana laws. They were real cool and loving grandparents Grandpa a Republican and Grandma a Democrat. Some loud voices during election years! People used to have more patience and more honor and more respect and a hell of a lot better work ethic. Those are facts. And I loved my bicycle too when I was a kid and I rode it constantly. But I didn’t have lunatics racing all around me either and had they they would have probably gone to jail. Do not pass go just go and wait for a judge. AND ya needed bail. No exceptions were made for any reason whatsoever.
Oh well a federal grant to Community Transit passed onto Edmonds. Then that’s different; it’s free money that cost us nothing since none of us pay any federal taxes. And just keep ignoring my question about who paid for the botched job do over just like your city management does. Thank God all those bicyclists that were dying like flys before the lanes were installed are now safe to save the world from the evil motorists. Now if you can just get that Connector at the waterfront and stop all the untimely death down there. I swear total nitwits have taken over the entire world.
Fit bicyclists will travel through Edmonds using the bike lanes content in knowing their tax dollars have been put to good use. If they are not nitwits they know free money did not pay for the lanes that separate them from motorists. Crazy as it is, one of the things about a democracy is nitwits and brainiacs all get just one vote each. Patience with us, please, my friend.
Yes – I saw two bicyclists last summer! Great use of tax money.
I wonder if they were the same two that I saw this afternoon.
I’m on 9th Ave daily, and I’ve yet to see those two bicyclists, but in all fairness, I did see a skateboarder there about a month ago.
So all bike riders are fit just because they ride a bike sometimes? So lines and signs painted on the road separate bikes from motor vehicle contact? When there were just imaginary lines and signs it was every bike man for himself and bikers being mowed down right and left. Now those pesky cars are blocked from bike car contact and every biker is totally safe and can just ride with carefree abandon because they have “separation.” I’m not sure if this is nitwit thinking or just wishful thinking. Since we are Pals in real life, Mike, I’ll go with wishful thinking. And what about my eternal question about who paid for the do over and how much did it cost? That’s my beef; not bicycles, bicyclists or bike lanes that just provide a false sense of security.
I have no knowledge of how the city budgets road repairs. From my experiences in budgeting projects, what I would do is determine all repairs needed, figure their costs and get bids. So I would assume city officers would include the repainting of street, parking and bike lines in the costs for repairing roads. This is the best I can do with answering your eternal question.
I can’t say if bikers’ sense of security is true or false. I can say from several sources of information, which includes my own bicycling experiences, that cyclists should obey all traffic laws, walk their bike across railroad tracks, ride defensively and wear visible clothing.
Lately and more than once I’ve seen small groups of young teens buzzing along at high speed on the 9th bike lanes riding electric bikes styled to look like mini dirt bikes. (No pedals were turning…) Most were wearing helmets but based on appearances there is no way they were licensed.
I believe that placing those bike lanes along 9th, especially through the Westgate frenzy zone, presents a long term liability to Edmonds because of the obvious rider safety risk posed by all those cars and driveway entrances. If a mini e-dirt bike driven by a 13 year old is involved it will be a sad day for the family and the City will undoubtedly be sued and probably lose.
If Edmonds allows the Lime scooters and “seated scooters” into town the bike lanes around Westgate will become even more of a frenzied dangerous situation. Just imagine those urbanites scooting along after dark and sharing the lane with a 13 year old on a dirt bike. I hope our traffic engineer considers rider safety on arterial bike lanes (among all the other reasons not to allow them here) if/when Edmonds is pressured to allow the Lime scooters.
Yes the lane going down 9th to past QFC on 100th is a nightmare. Cars trying to get out of the parking lot and coming from the 4 way stop light and right in the middle of all of this is a tiny little bike lane. It’s scary and I have never seen a bike there either thank goodness. Yeah, we don’t need Lime Bikes here unless you just want to see them knocked over like dominos like I have seen all over corners in Seattle this past 5 months. Edmonds is a little city pretty far North of Seattle the actual big city. I don’t why Edmonds seems to want to think it is a big city…It has no tall skyscrapers with businesses or whatever in it DT core. That is what a Big City looks like. Its nuts here. I actually expect Edmonds to get smaller and all that building projected is crazy too. With the Tech situation and now with a B and O tax more businesses discouraged everywhere…Dreamers they are. Reasoning folks is what is needed and a real quick reality check and it’s not the result of Socialism that is the problem it is the Ideals promoted constantly that are affecting our city. Now the Social part ok but the tax part not ok. Not all of the time. Stop.
I don’t see any avid bike riders commenting. If they are trying to dissuade our observations they are gonna have one cold wet winter to prove us wrong. Now I’m totally cool with the electric cars and the hybrids and the well-maintained exhaust system gas cars. We should re introduce that emissions station and charge like they did and this time if you are that serious about the climate situation then everyone pays to fix their cars if they are going to drive them.
That Emissions station was not expensive it was like 10 bucks every two years I think. We are not a poor group of taxpayers this 10 bucks or even 14 per head and or car would bring in revenue even though some that can’t afford to fix their exhausts got a pass even then the rest of us could bring in some serious coin.
Heck, Deborah, who do you think I am if not an “avid bike rider”? It seems that I am a lone voice. I keep thinking of the baseball movie, “Field of Dreams”: “Build it and they will come” was a mantra in the film. If we make the roads friendly for bicyclists, I believe they will use them to connect with the ferry, light rail, buses and interurban trail. I believe that I have seen more bicyclists on our roads. I know that I am a biased observer. Agreed, my point of view is not helped by youngsters racing their electric scooters along the bike lanes.
This discussion provides additional reasons why Lee Reeves’ exploration of a shuttle service between neighborhoods and our “downtown” is so important to Edmonds’ future. Fewer cars in our neighborhoods is an integral part of encouraging more bicycles. Parking AND safety issues are involved.
Michael Molly,
As an avid bicyclist you certainly know that few of us would be able to pedal a bicycle up Main Street to Five Corners, or up other hills leading to neighborhoods. Because of Edmonds terrain of hills leading down to Puget Sound, electric bicycles should be factored into bike travel in Edmonds. In my opinion, those who use any “electric” bicycle (or scooter) should be licensed.
You may be interested in WSDOT’s Complete Streets report:
https://wsdot.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2025-11/complete-streets-report-requirement-implementation.pdf
Excerpt:
“The Complete Streets requirement (RCW 47.04.035) describes a street as incomplete if it lacks a “complete and Americans with Disabilities Act accessible sidewalk or shared-use path,” “bicycle facilities in the form of a bike lane or adjacent parallel trail or shared-use path” and “buffer or physical separation from vehicular traffic for pedestrians and bicyclists” if there is a posted speed in excess of 30 miles per hour (mph) in a population center.”
I was unable to find any distinction between bicycles and electric bicycles or reference to licensing of electric bicycle (and scooter) drivers in the report.
Thank you, Joan, for providing comments in support of responsible use of bicycles in Edmonds.
Electric bikes are relatively new in their widespread use. Perhaps new regulations are needed to curb their abuse, ie. speeding and reckless handling. As with pedal bikes, they are required to obey all laws directing road traffic. Another concern are electric scooters and boards, sometimes abused by youngsters. We also have problems with reckless driving and speeding by motorists. There are not enough policemen to enforce lawful road behavior. Our voters are divided in the use of road cameras to punish offenders. Meanwhile we must drive and ride defensively.
Michael Molly,
Do you ride a bicycle all around Edmonds? Ya know man I am just saying we spent a ton of cash on bike lanes that are not being used much at all and don’t look safe for the rider and that I have never seen anyone on any bike lane anywhere in Edmonds. The city is broke from overspending in some areas and some people and the rest of our city is paying for it. Literally in every way. Now I think you are right that the Interurban trail will get some summer and fall bike riders and I think that is a good plan. With the new apartments opening near that Interurban good idea. I agree E-bikes=scooters should be licensed. Enjoy riding its good for you. I can’t ride but if I could and when I could I didn’t ride in the wind and rain and puddles full of water. Well maybe a fun puddle when I was a child. I did pull a few block hills not as steep as these hills. The Hill from main up is a bear and 9th-100th as is Bowdoin dangerous as heck(ha) as is the one on the corner area of 212th and 76th by 7-11. I see no bikes there either. Field of Dreams a great movie. We built them they didn’t come, Michael.
I see bikes on 100th/9th all the time. Saw two groups today in the little bit of time I was there.
Deborah, you may not believe me. The federal government granted the city $1.5 million for bike lanes. The grant did not allow the city to use the money for anything else. If as some residents suggest, the city spent more than 1.5 million on the painting of bike lanes, that probably came from city funds.
I have bicycled extensively in eastern and midwestern states and eastern Canada. Sadly, my long distance cycling days are behind me. I enjoy seeing bicyclists riding through town. I admit that I am a biased observer. I do see increasing numbers of them going through town, with some bikes on ferries, buses and light rail trains. From personal experiences I know there are bikers who enjoy the challenge of hills like those of the Edmonds bowl. Others will prefer to go around to the north or south of town.
Mike, this was not a “road repair.” It was a “do-over” of what was supposed to be a free to Edmonds taxpayers road safety enhancement that would help bicyclists navigate Edmonds’ roads to the waterfront bus and ferry hub and help motorists NOT run them over. The end result was a mystery to bikers and motorists alike as to how it worked. How difficult would it have been for the Mayor to state how much the do over cost and who actually paid for it? Did the city attorney, who makes over 1M+ annually off of Edmonds taxpayers, threaten legal action if the vendor didn’t repair the botched job free of charge? We don’t know because there is little to no accountability for how and why money gets spent by your Mayors and their staffs on just about everything they manage. Citizens keep arguing over whether it’s a spending or revenue problem when the real problem is that they gave a government system that just doesn’t work.
Clint, I think we are talking about two different items with regard to the Edmonds roads. Perhaps we could figure this out, or at least my misunderstanding, when we discuss it verbally rather than in writing.
Michiel The city had a choice of what to spend the money on it chose the bike lanes the city did have options it could have used the money for sidewalks or shared use paths. I remember at the time one of our residents was talking about lack of sidewalk near a elementary school just maybe that would have been a better use of these grant funds I don’t know but your statement that bike lanes was the only choice is false.
Jim Fairchild, It may have been me who made that comment about the need for sidewalks or pathways out of the street for the kids up here where we have 3 public schools. It began for me when I saw a women with her baby in a stroller and she had to leave the sidewalk as it was so kinked up she couldn’t push her stroller. I got out of my car and stopped traffic like a crossing guard would until I could go and talk to her son. She was non english speaking. We got her back and oddly the cars were backed up from 220th to212th but not one person in those cars honked at all. They just waited. That made me feel positive about people in our area for sure. Is it true that we had a choice with that grant money and was that decided and passed when Nelson and that CC were in power? I would love to know that. I figure it was as the CC at that time was a block of 4 who always voted one way. I think the reason so many of our current CC members did want that Levy is this is about the current money situation and some will never change their minds. Others might and Some never.
Man, Jim, it has been years since this argument developed. People were angered that the city was spending $1.5 million on bike lanes and only some thousands (I don’t recall how much.) on sidewalk repair. In fact some residents complained about having no sidewalks and going for a walk was dangerous. In an Edmonds News article on this issue the author produced a link to a city line item budget showing the federal grant money and indicating that the money could only be used for bike lanes. Before I learned about the federal grant, I was of the opinion that the city could afford sidewalks and bike lanes at the same time. I decided to open the link to the federal grant and found the $1.5 million. You can believe me or not.
Mike, interesting. You will have to tell me what I’m missing then. My only point with this bicycle thing is that it appears that the citizens ended up paying for the “free” bike lanes and “sharrows” signs, which might just be a very small one of the many reasons that the plan now seems to be to hit all the business’s top line (income before expenses) with a hefty tax, since the private property owners have finally rebelled. Paid parking is also on the tax radar screen and that should really be a boon to your local business’s ability to survive. When I moved to Edmonds in 1960 the town was 14000+ population and had a booming waterfront with real metal and mechanical fabrication industry and numerous boat houses feeding the tax kitty and things ran pretty well, city management wise. There were even Ford and Chevrolet dealerships right in old down town. The problems really started when the full time, development pushing, annexation promoting and save Deadmonds style mayors got their hands on the steering wheel (or handle bars in your case) of city management. Paulsbo, near where I now live, has 13000+ people with it’s own fire and police departments and a booming tourist industry. Whey can’t Edmonds with 42000+ population do that?
Clint, I did not mean to imply you were missing anything in my last comment. I said that I think we are talking about two different things. I meant to suggest we not continue using MENS because I feel we are “talking past” each other here. For now I will add that whatever bike lanes ended up costing the city, I repeatedly pointed out that 1.5 million dollars came from the federal government. Of course, anyone who pays federal taxes contributed to that grant. No city money went there unless the city spent more than that amount, and the city was not allowed to spend any of this grant for other purposes.
Hey Michael is it true that this money grant money from the Feds could have been used for maybe more pressing things at the time? And that the Mayor then went with the bike lanes choice? Just trying to get a bead here on how all of this happened. Thank you Michael. I will believe you when you answer me about this. You appear to be a friend of Clintons, and I don’t know Clinton but I have always enjoyed reading his opinions. He can be very nice.
Michael Molly, I don’t not believe you. So, every single bike line all over Edmonds didn’t cost taxpayers here anything or affect our operating budgets? What about those in the Bowl area? Are all of the planned lanes paid for now? I honestly didn’t know they were all funded with grants…Maybe it was the street overlays on Main or something that we decided to do at the same time? Main thing is Michael I don’t want to see anyone get hurt and honestly that QFC situation makes me nervous. I believe that if a motorist driving hits a bicyclist even if the bicyclist darted out it is the motorist that can be sued. So, the best job we can do to make sure that heavy traffic areas have plenty of room and everyone should use hand signals if they bike and stop etc. We could also stop some of the R turns on Red in these heavy traffic areas that might help. Ya think? ha
That’s great Arlene. You live quite a distance from there, don’t you? It was nicer today glad to hear the bike lanes were being used today. I have nothing against Bike Lanes Arlene. I actually believe living in harmony is really nice. I don’t like it when some criticize others preferences etc. For the most part I am a do what you want person unless another person will be physically harmed. I just don’t like to be pushed around. I don’t like Passive aggressive behavior much either. I’m a pretty straight shooter when it comes to being upfront and honest. I am not perfect. I get things wrong. I form opinions about people sometimes that may be incorrect and if I do I try to rectify that situation. I have lived in Edmonds for 33 years and I’ve always been that same straight shooter with horrid writing skills that loves all of Edmonds. I don’t judge people by their politics. I didn’t grow up that way. Now you claim you lived in Kansas, so you probably understand that the Midwest mindset is a bit different. For one thing it took me forever to realize that where I came from people were friendlier and they spoke and smiled on the streets. After time I quit taking the rebuff personally and realized people have different natures.
I think you are involved with our Climate people here. Is that right? I have conversed here with Nick Maxwell and I like Nick. He knows I do have a gas car. It is driven approximately 50 miles a month. That’s it. It is a car that is well maintained even though It is driven so little. It is a car with the potential to last 2000, thousand miles and it only has 72,000 miles on it and its 13 years old. As I slowly work back into our community I will probably drive more. I live in a two-story house with a gas furnace but our upstairs my room and the bathroom are electric and the front has a nice well maintained free standing gas stove. It’s off totally and in the winter the pilot light is enough to keep that room warm. Downstairs we have a new gas furnace, but we don’t heat all of the area downstairs with that either. I have a little electric radiator type free standing for a couple of those rooms. I don’t like heat pumps as I don’t think they are very good. I like Thermal too and hope to see more of that. I liked Al Gore just fine, and I believed him all those years ago. I hate plastic. I buy biodegradable clothing and linens.
Deborah, I am making progress with you…I guess. I hope that you don’t not believe me is close to you believe me The way you write it appears to me that you care about behaving as a responsible resident. I believe this is vital to our prosperity as a society. You also seem like a person who is willing to listen and when something makes sense you are open minded. Of the things you described in your life, a point I will make is that our household used to heat our house with an old electric furnace. We switched to a heat pump and it has saved us a lot of money in use of electricity each month, summer air conditioning and winter heat. Thanks for your thoughtful sensitivity.
Michael I guess there is no point in arguing about water under the bridge. We may be talking about 2 different things as I recall the grant came from sound transit and at the time there were 2 options. I looked at the sound transit website and that grant could be used for bike lanes sidewalks or shared paths.i guess it is more about did we make best use of that money, I am not against bike lanes or sidewalks although I prefer protected lanes or shared paths the problem with these painted lanes is quite often they are where the debris collects and bike riders will ride the line or in the road anyway pretty much defeating the purpose of extra space for the rider. So we narrowed lanes reduced parking created greater maintenance with little to no real benefit, I hope we have learned our lesson.
Yes, Jim, I don’t want to argue the point. I will agree with you and many others that had the city a choice about how to use the $1.5 million there was and continues to be a greater need for work done on sidewalks. I walk around town and see all the paint lines. I will disagree with you regarding the benefit of bike lines. Roads were not narrowed. The lines are only aids to keep bicyclists and motors apart. Where lines are painted on the road motorist may drive normally as long as a bicyclist is not present. If one is ahead the motorist must remain behind until the road opens up or the motorist may safely pass keeping 3ft separation. Poor driving and poor riding exist. You don’t know whether one bicyclist or 100 are riding through Edmonds each day. Neither do I. Likewise you don’t know how many riders and drivers had close calls with accidents or how many of those were avoided thanks to bike lines. Neither do I. I would be curious to know what the city says about the loss of parking spaces due to painting bike lanes. I don’t know of any loss.
Time to close this thread. Thanks all.
Oh Michael Molly you are so nice. Yes you have made progress with me. Yes that is correct not not believing is very close to believing. I now believe you…not that I didn’t hahahaha. Ok heres the gig. First don’t have the cash right now to lay out for new heating systems. I need my bathroom remodeled it’s in desperate need. Plumbing and fixtures. These are my needs not my wants. I want to have my fireplace resurfaced with tile and a nice mantle. I can grout like a fool but I can’t drill and stuff into the brick fireplace. I don’t burn wood at all in there but I do like the fireplace. That is a want. I have read heat pumps don’t last that long. I have no air conditioning. This is a two-story house and it’s expensive to do a heat pump in a two story home. We don’t qualify for $$ breaks for anything and that is fine. We are childless and we must save for our old age as we are the ones who will be taking care of us. But if I win the lotto or find some cash I will buy a hybrid car and a really nice heating system. XO. My new friend who I definitely like and believe!:)
You seem in quite a dilemma, Deborah. From what you write you have given much attention to the pros and cons of a heat pump. I can only say that ours has worked well providing cold air in summer and heat in winter. We have had it for 8 years costing per winter month about a third of our previous old electric furnace. The initial cost of the heat pump system was steep. We used a company recommended by PUD.
As you notice others have had negative experiences with a heat pump system. So what to do? What I asked myself is how dissatisfied I was with my old system and could I afford a new one? PUD came to our house and examined the efficiency of our home. They recommended a heat pump and some reputable installers. These gave us quotes and eventually did the work. We were sufficiently dissatisfied with our old furnace, had enough cash to purchase the new system and were fortunate to hire reputable installers. I hope this helps you.
“I don’t like heat pumps as I don’t think they are very good.’
Can you explain? I put one in a year ago and have been very pleased – though the “smart” thermostat contenues to outsmart me 🙂 I have a high-efficiency gas furnace that can kick in when it’s very cold. Seems a great system!
Mike’s a great guy and good friend of mine and no need at all to beat him up over HIS viewpoint. I think this whole thing is illustrative of the possible pit falls of trying to run a town using grants and gifts as a MAGOR income source. Grants run out and get mismanaged; then the taxpayers pick up the tab for re-dos and never ending maintenance.
Our new house is all electric with a heat pump and an A/C unit for the open living room, dining area and kitchen that has an induction range. We used the A/C exactly once for about 2 hours during Summer and our last Electric bill was $91.00. Saving money and the planet all at the same time. Lots of bicyclists over here but almost no bike lanes or “sharrows” to be found outside Kingston. Roads are well maintained but treacherous, especially at night. Haven’t seen any clobbered cyclists on the side of the road. We have recently lost a deer or two and the local Hansville bear to vehicular contact.
Nathaniel. I don’t know we read all sorts of things and who knows what’s true and what isn’t. I read that Heat pumps don’t help with air-conditioning when it is very hot in the summer. I read the same thing about if it is very cold in the winter. I read that it is very important who installs them as they do shut off a lot if not installed properly? I read they don’t last that long 10 years maybe? Is that all correct? All that aside I have a two story home and also a high efficiency gas furnace as I mentioned for part of our house. For us it about the expense too. We don’t qualify for any breaks which is totally fine but as I told my new pal Michael Molly ha we have needs that are going to cost us a bunch around here before we can consider any wants personal or for environmental reasons. So, in the interim we will just do our best. I don’t burn wood either. Inside or outside. Happy Thanksgiving.
A standard efficiency heat pump loses value when the ambient air temperature gets below 35F outside. After that temperature bottom is breached, the all-electric furnace kicks on exclusively. It is the monetary equivalent of standing in one’s living room and lighting $50 bills on fire to keep warm. We have a heat pump. But we also have a free-standing natural gas Vermont Castings stove that effectively warms the entire living area of the house when true winter weather creeps in. Were we to build a new home from scratch, it would include thermal fluid floor type heating to warm the floors and not all of the air in the room. And that would be based on a natural gas heating source.
Our electric furnace at times gave the feeling as you describe, Kurt, even if your description is an amusing exaggeration. We do now have a heated floor in the bathroom, but by electricity. It is lovely in the winter. I would like to know what you mean and see some evidence for saying that a “standard efficiency heat pump loses value when the ambient air temperature gets below 35F outside.” And in the summer does it lose efficiency if the ambient temperature is above a certain temperature? And if this is true how much will a unit lose in efficiency in a climate like Edmonds where days below 35F, and some with a higher temperature like 90F are fewer than in other places?
The literature Michael all shows the standard operating ranges and efficiency curve for heat pumps; indicating the drop-off in efficiency around ambient temperatures slightly around freezing. It is a well know fact, that unless boosted by other means, the efficiency is a matter of physics over ‘technology’. I’ve never really bothered with the efficiency concerns at higher ambient temperatures when in AC mode as I hate it really hot and humid 😉
Your point about Edmonds temperature ranges is well founded. But we have all experienced that rare 1-2 week deep Polar Express where it is colder than all get out and the furnace, heat pump, whatever is working OT. In the case of the Heat Pump using the electric resistance strips pretty much exclusively, that becomes unbearably expensive. Not really advocating one system over another. Just that relying on all-electric is not a panacea, especially with all the data centers and bit coin mining acting like energy hogs… I believe in diversified sources of power and will continue to provide that for the home. But then I also have a dual source back up generator. Peace.
I have a heat pump with no heating strip… a Mitsubishi hyper heat pump good down to minus 15 degree F. No electric or gas backup at all. Works perfectly fine in cold weather. Very efficient compared to gas. Other members of my family have the same with no issues. And then we have cooling in the summer. It is a great machine. And no methane emissions. And no carbon monoxide.
The idea that heat pumps are not good in cold weather is out of date. That is why Norway and Finland have a the largest percentage of heat pumps in Europe:
“The top country, Norway, has 632 heat pumps installed for every 1,000 households, closely followed by Finland at 524. What’s more, sales in those countries are still strong, with 48 heat pumps sold for every 1,000 households in 2024 in Norway, and 33 in Finland – the highest levels in Europe.” https://ehpa.org/news-and-resources/press-releases/heat-pump-sales-14-times-greater-in-lead-countries/
Happy thanksgiving to you! I’ve got a great one coming up with old friends.
That’s wonderful Nathaniel. I think it was the girl scouts when I was young, we sang the song Make New Friends But Keep the Old one is silver and the other gold. I do have quite a few OLD ha friends left around the country and they are awesome. But I have also found that friendships can be forged pretty quick and they are awesome those tend to focus more on current experiences etc etc. When I go home a lot of time is spent reminiscing (which I love and laugh a lot) but the newer friendships focus more on what is actually going on in my life and in my surrounding areas etc. Can’t beat True Friendship that’s for sure. Have fun Nathaniel.